I didn’t used to have any idea what the Emergent Church was, and I sort of liked the Noomla videos that Rob Bell put out. That was until I started hearing about some of the things Bell preaches. That’s when I started asking some serious questions about what the Emergent Church is and how it is having an effect on the Church at large. We even did a podcast on it.
Now I’m convinced that in a nutshell, the Emergent Church can be described as a group of well meaning, intelligent people who in an attempt to make the church relevant have put reason & intellect above scripture, bringing into question many of the truths of who Jesus is.
Most recently, I listened to a podcast of Mark Driscoll in which he addresses some serious problems with the Emergent movement - humbly pointing out false teachings of his friends Tony Jones & Brian McLaren as well as Rob Bell, who he has never met.
Pastor Mark Driscoll teaches on the topic of the emerging church; its history, its doctrine, and its biblical problems. Pastor Driscoll also comments on Mars Hill Church’s connection and subsequent separation from the Emerging Church movement and offers critique on the doctrine of emergent church figures such as Rob Bell, Doug Pagitt, and Brian Mclaren. This audio was recorded at the 2007 Convergent conference hosted by the South Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary. - From the Mars Hill Podcast Feed.
The bottom line is that Jesus is supreme and scripture is absolutely true. It is true that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, died, came back to life and reigns forever more. It is also true that there is a hell and that every human being is deserving of spending eternity there and will spend eternity there unless they put their trust in Jesus Christ & the redemption that comes only through his blood which he shed on the cross. Anything other than the Jesus revealed to us in scripture is utter nonsense and heresy.
As youth leaders and missionaries, we should be prayerful & extremely careful who we allow to influence the kids who have been entrusted to us. I’d challenge all my friends & fellow workers to take a long hard look at some of these folks and to keep in mind these words of Paul (God actually) from Colossians, Chapter 2.
My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.
Again, these folks are smart, interesting, nice people. They are extremely capable of “fine-sounding” arguments that are extremely relevent to our culture. But, arguments that draw people away from our Lord Jesus Christ and the biblical truths about Him are petty arguments that lead to a false hope in worldly knowledge.
I’m currently in the process of reading Driscoll’s book, Vintage Jesus. It is oddly enough, all about Jesus and uses tons of scripture references throughout. I’ll have more on the book later. Stay tuned.
9 users commented in " The Emergent Church…Reason over Jesus? "
Follow-up comment rss or Leave a TrackbackI am also in the middle of the book Vintage Jesus and find it a great read. He is very uncompromising, which is exactly what we need to be in spite of what the emergent church is telling us. I do agree with Rob Bell’s assertion that all of these things should be up for discussion, however, I think Driscoll gets it right. It is a book every youth / Young Life leader should read to not get confused in this post-modern hoopla. It is easy to get caught up in all of it, because it sounds great (love, love, love) but it compromises far too many of the absolute truths about Jesus.
I agree that these things should be up for discussion, but only in the context of talking to non-believers. It doesn’t make sense to me for Christians to be discussing among themselves whether or not the resurrection really happened. It happened. It’s the most important part of our faith. We can discuss with non-believers the facts surrounding it, but for church leaders to bring up the idea that maybe Jesus wasn’t really dead, is ridiculous false teaching and actually leads people away from the truth.
Good point. I guess all I’m saying is that if we just assume because we have been told by another pastor or christian that the virgin birth is true without ever knowing why we believe that, or wrestling with these questions ourselves, then what good are we to the non-believers who need answers to their questions. I think one thing that God is doing to me through reading Driscoll is making me hungrier to know why i’m believing things, and to be able to back it up with scripture. Also, since your a teacher, you may be able to correct my run-on sentence to start this comment.
Since we’re emerging and there really are not rules or absolutes, but we’re just sort of talking about stuff, I don’t know if it would be appropriate for me to correct your run-on sentence, although it wouldn’t be wrong for me to correct you as long as I told you that we could continue to talk about it and that you might not be wrong - oh crap. While I was talking about it, I worked myself into a run-on sentence. Now I’ve violated the very laws of grammar that I’ve known all along and I’m not sure what to believe.
Here’s the thing. There are some things in the Christian faith that are scriptural absolutes, such as the virgin birth, Jesus’ divinity, Jesus’ humanity, Jesus’ death on the cross, & Jesus’ resurrection. It’s fine to talk about how we know they are absolute, but if we begin to talk about how they might not be true then we lose Jesus. All of those things have got to be true in order for Jesus to be the perfect sacrifice for our atonement.
More intelligent people than me might feel there’s a need for more proof than God has already provided. I just thank God that he didn’t make me that smart.
I’m not disagreeing with you. The reason why I like Driscolls book however, is because it confronts that. Instead of taking the side that the emergent church’s argument is illegitiment and just ignoring it, it deals with the truth. Those of us who still believe in these absolute truths and put our entire faith on the absurd idea that God would put on skin and die for us just as he says it would happen, and did happen, would be foolish to ignore that many people are being misled by people like Brian McClaren and the likes. Unless it is confronted, that trend will continue to grow. There is a lot more that is frightening to me about the Emergent Church’s beliefs, but this is certainly at the heart of it.
A couple of thoughts, if I might interject…
Have either of you read McLaren or Jones or any of “them.” I don’t ask to be accusatory, I’m just wondering. I’ve read those two a little and I high doubt either of them would deny absolute truth or any of the absolutely true doctrines Chris laid out (the virgin birth, Jesus’ divinity, etc.)
Speaking of those doctrines, one of the issues that “they” try to deal with is what doctrines are absolute as far as Christian beliefs go. In other words, what do I have to believe to qualify as Christian? I think this issue (and question) is really important in the world of Young Life and out-reach youth ministries because we deal with kids who don’t get fed these doctrines in church.
For example, our club talks cover Jesus’ humanity, divinity, death on the cross and resurrection every semester without fail. But what about the virgin birth? Is that essential? Is creation essential? Is the Holy Spirit essential? Is it essential to talk of atonement as substitutionary (as Paul outlines) or should we focus on atonement as reconciliatory (as Jesus’ Prodigal Son parable does)?
Anyway, I absolutely believe in absolute truth, but I also think that these guys are contributing a lot to our faith with their thoughts. I’m looking forward to hearing your podcast on this stuff!
Shawn,
Welcome to the discussion. I must humbly confess that I have not read much of either of their books, although I have read quite a bit about the Emergent Church, and I visit Emergent Village & Tony Jones’ blog frequently. I was introduced to Jones’ blog when he attacked YL’s non-negotiables (in which he irresponsibly misquoted the document).
As far as I know a lot of what they believe, teach, and discuss (because after all the Emergent Church is all about having discussions) is in line with Christian doctrine. But, my problem is when essential aspects of the Christian faith are being questioned to the point that they “don’t really matter” - things like the virgin birth & Jesus divinity, as you mentioned.
Those two are absolutely essential, not to have a saving faith, but for that saving faith to be valid. If Jesus was not born of a virgin and was not God, then he could not have died to pay the price for our sins. In addition, he lied about being God, and/or scripture is inaccurate.
I’m not saying we should hit kids or other unchurched folks with every truth, because every truth is not necessary for faith in Christ & salvation. But, that doesn’t mean they aren’t true. It’s a problem when church leaders say they don’t matter.
As for the atonement as substitutionary or reconciliatory question, I believe we should do both, just like we should express God’s justice & mercy without excluding one or the other, because they are both absolutely true.
I guess I take issue with people just throwing out fundamental beliefs of the Church that are rooted in scripture, just because of how they believe the people they are trying to reach think. Instead, as any good teacher would do, we should attempt to find new ways to teach those truths.
I think it is always a good idea to read the people you are going to criticize.
Before you attribute something to someone you have to make sure they actually said it. Listening to someone else tell you what “they” said is not enough to form a complete enough picture to actually argue a point.
I know Rob Bell and have read some McLaren and I can tell you that they have never questioned the Divinity of Jesus in anything I have heard from either of them. In fact I would say they are both counting very much on the Divinity of Jesus in their personal faith journeys.
I know this is about being careful of what we believe and not necessarily attacking these men and I appreciate that (as a worthy trait for any Young Life leader.) But I would recommend reading some of their books or listening to something they have actually said and recorded (podcasts) before carrying this thread much further.
Hey guys…I think that Rick McKinley does a great job of bringing “emerging/emergent” into perspective. Blessings
http://www.rickmckinley.net/2007/10/18/my-thoughts-on-the-emerging-church/
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